When Labour’s leadership and deputy leadership candidates signed a pledge labelling Woman’s Place UK and the LGB Alliance transphobic hate groups, we published this piece in defence of Woman’s Place UK. Several readers got in touch asking why we hadn’t mentioned the LGB Alliance and the answer was simple: we didn’t know much about them, hadn’t spoken to them and had never attended any meetings so were not in a position to comment.

The argument about trans rights continues to rage and we vehemently believe that shutting down debate and “no-platforming” is counter-productive. We know that it’s only through engagement and at least trying to understand the points of view of others that we can strive to eliminate the toxic division which has marred our communities for so long.

That’s why we sent our editor, Rob Harkavy, to interview Kate Harris and Bev Jackson from the LGB Alliance. It’s fair to say that Kate and Bev hold firm opinions that many of you won’t agree with but we live in a society where free speech, within the bounds of the law, is paramount.

It’s in this spirit that we invite you to read on.

Can you explain why you set up the LGB Alliance?

In 2015, Stonewall decided to adopt an agenda promoting gender identity theory and set up their Trans Advisory Group. This meant abandoning its original mission to promote the rights of LGB people. According to gender identity theory, everyone has a gender identity (a feeling) that should take priority over biological sex – including in law making. In addition, Stonewall says that anyone should be able to change their sex simply by making a legal declaration, and that legislation giving women and girls their own sex-protected places should be repealed. Children should be taught that they may have been “born in the wrong body” if they differ in any way from 1950’s gender stereotypes. These ideas are not only controversial but harmful, yet all requests to discuss them are banned as Stonewall describes any questioning as “transphobic”.

We tried for two years to engage Stonewall in discussion, including a petition launched in October 2018, which received almost 10,000 signatures. Our request was simply that Stonewall would talk to us. Many other groups and individuals wrote to Stonewall expressing serious concern about the direction they had chosen to take – all were brushed aside. Since Stonewall refused to talk to us we had no choice but to set up as a separate group.

What are your key objectives?

  1. To advance the interests of lesbians, gay men and bisexuals at a time when we are under threat from concerted attempts to introduce confusion between biological sex and the notion of gender.
  2. To amplify the voices of lesbians and to highlight the dual discrimination we experience as women who are same-sex attracted in a male-dominated society. We support women’s reproductive rights and bodily autonomy.
  3. To protect children and young people from being taught unscientific gender doctrines, particularly the idea that they may have been born in the wrong body, which may lead to life-changing and potentially harmful medical procedures.
  4. To promote respectful freedom of speech and informed dialogue.

Are there any trans members of LGB Alliance?

We don’t have members. We are an LGB group which is lesbian led. We welcome support from anyone who shares our aims/objectives – be they straight, gay, lesbian, trans or whatever.

Many transsexuals have concerns at the direction taken by groups supposed to represent them and have fundamental disagreements – including the belief that anyone can change their sex, a notion with which they disagree. These are the people who join us at our meetings and make public statements against the silencing of differences of opinion. Like us, they want respectful freedom of speech and informed dialogue.

Why are we lesbian led? Because lesbians have been hardest hit by the promotion of gender identity theory by mainstream LGBT organisations. Attempts have been made to silence lesbians over the last few years and to ensure that there are no lesbians at Pride and other LGBT events.  This is done with threats of violence and name calling on social media – phrases such as “Kill a TERF” are common.

Some lesbians have been extremely brave and successfully demonstrated against this exclusion. The group “Get the L Out” managed to delay the beginning of the Pride march in London in 2018. A group at Lancaster Pride held another demonstration in 2019 but were surrounded and shouted down by trans rights activists. A photo of this was subsequently tweeted by the Head of the Board of Trustees of Stonewall, praising the transactivists. Yes, really.

Lesbians are told that it is “transphobic” to be exclusively attracted to other women. According to gender identity theory, they should be open to considering biological males as potential partners, as gender is more important than sex, and if someone with a penis says he is a lesbian then he IS a lesbian. Hard to believe but true – as is evidenced by the fact that around 40% of individuals on dating sites for lesbians are people with male bodies.

How are you funded?

All our money comes from individual donations via JustGiving, plus any income from tickets sold on Eventbrite for our meetings. When we started our JustGiving page it was immediately closed down due to a large number of unfounded complaints about us. We have had to work closely with JustGiving over the months to establish our credentials as a responsible and trustworthy fundraiser.

Critics, including some high-profile individuals, like to tweet, and imply directly or indirectly, that we are funded by the Christian far right in America. This is completely false. We make it clear on our website that we do not have any links with any organization that does not support women’s reproductive rights. So, it is a wildly inaccurate claim, but it pops up regularly.

Why do people say this?  Why would they want to discredit an organisation committed to respectful freedom of speech and informed dialogue? Possibly because that is the opposite of what they want? Their goal is to close down any dissenting voices which expose the dangers of the gender identity theory they preach. They have failed to stop our JustGiving funding; they have failed to close our website although regular attempts are made to hack us; they have failed to stop our meetings and so they resort to a stream of abuse and slurs online.

What are your plans for the future?

Global revolution. We will challenge the dominance of the international groups ILGA and IGLYO. Gender identity theory has been accepted by multiple organisations worldwide saying they represent LGBT people. We exist to say no – enough – you do not represent the vast majority of lesbians, gays and bisexuals. We are not prepared to stand by and see a generation of children steered away from being gender non-conforming and probably lesbian, gay or bisexual, and told they need to change their bodies. We regard this as child abuse and homosexual erasure.

The UN, the Council of Europe, the EU, and policymakers in many countries have fallen for fantasy over fact in the area of sex and gender. It is a sad time in history, but we believe that scientific fact and informed opinion will eventually prevail. It is time to stand up for LGB rights, and to do so separately from those who stand up, as they are absolutely entitled to do, for the rights of transgender people. Our issue is sexual orientation, which is about being attracted to people of the same sex. Those who are pursuing rights related to gender identity have different battles to fight. We support any transsexuals who wish to organise together, and we offer to support them in their campaigns against discrimination.

Since we started, people from many countries have contacted us to ask how to start their own LGB Alliance. They feel abandoned by LGBT organisations and say their voices are not being heard. We will continue to stand up for these silenced people and encourage others to join us. This is the start of a global movement.

The “Labour Campaign for Trans Rights” has labelled you as transphobic. What’s your beef with trans people?

We don’t have a beef with anyone. We do have a problem with the whole issue of gender identity theory, though, and the language used by organisations like Stonewall.

For instance, going by the glossary on Stonewall’s website, “trans people” would include a small boy who thinks he is a girl, a teenage girl who suddenly identifies as a boy, a post-operative transsexual person, a middle-aged man who self-IDs as a woman without taking any hormones or undergoing any surgery, and a cross-dresser. It is hard to know how you could have any opinion about such a diverse group of people.

Also, in some cases, being “trans” is a temporary thing. We know this because of the hundreds of young people who have recently come forward, mostly women in their twenties, who say that they regret their transition and were in fact struggling with their lesbianism. Clinicians who resigned from the Gender Identity Service have said that there was a common joke among the staff at the service: “Soon there will be no gay kids left!” Sometimes, homophobic parents prefer to have their son become a daughter than have him grow up gay. We are really concerned that some children are undergoing transition when they would otherwise grow up LGB. If not medicalised, most children with gender dysphoria do grow up LGB.

Activists often say that very few people ever regret their transition. But the figures they quote are inaccurate and wildly out of date. They do not relate at all to the huge wave of young people who have transitioned over the past decade. There has been an almost 4000% increase in the number of girls wanting to transition over the past 10 years in the UK. Many different factors are involved in this, and research is badly needed. “Detransitioners” receive very little help. The trans community often reject them, calling them traitors, and transactivists urge them to keep quiet about their experiences since it hurts the trans cause.

And then there is the word “transphobia”. Again going by Stonewall’s glossary, you are “transphobic” if you don’t accept that someone is the “gender” they say they are. So it is transphobic to refuse to accept that a rapist or a man who has fathered several children and now IDs as a woman, actually is a woman. In our view, this makes the word “transphobic” meaningless. It represents a kind of thought police: “You must think in this way.” We reject that. In its truer sense, “transphobia” would refer to a morbid fear or hatred. We don’t hate or fear trans people. But we do oppose gender identity theory.

Do you have a message for the Labour leadership candidates who signed that infamous pledge?

By signing the infamous pledge that labels us a “hate group”, the Labour leadership candidates showed that they knew nothing about our aims and the reason we founded our organisation. They also showed ignorance about what a “hate group” actually is, which is disturbing in itself, since hate groups do exist. In so readily signing a pledge that defamed us without thinking it necessary to meet us and find out more about us, these candidates showed that they were pandering to a particular group of the Labour party, for whom they were willing casually to defame others. We would invite them to meet with us and discover who we really are, after which we are sure they will want to apologise and retract their endorsement of the parts of the pledge that refer to us.

Do you believe that gender dysphoria exists?

“Gender dysphoria” certainly exists, in the sense that some people clearly suffer acute distress regarding their sexed bodies. However, doctors admit that it cannot be diagnosed objectively. A diagnosis is based solely on what the person says. This makes it particularly wrong to diagnose gender dysphoria in a child. To medicalise a child – and it is important to note that almost 100% of kids who are given puberty blockers go on to take irreversible cross-sex hormones – based on that child’s self-diagnosis is the height of irresponsibility. It is a large-scale medical experiment on children, and we have no doubt that it will soon be exposed as such and stopped. As far as adults are concerned, those who suffer from gender dysphoria should certainly have access to whatever health services they need.

To be clear: we do not believe that it is possible to be “born in the wrong body”, and there is no scientific evidence whatever to support it. We do however believe that some people would describe their subjective feelings this way, and need to undergo medical/surgical steps, as adults, to alleviate these feelings.

What is your view of “self ID”?

Biologists such as Emma Hilton and Colin Wright have made it absolutely clear (in https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-dangerous-denial-of-sex-11581638089) that humans are born male and female. That is biological sex, and every person on the planet was born from an ovum from a female and a sperm from a male. Some people believe that they also have a “gender” or “gender identity”, which differs from their biological sex. No one has ever provided a definition of this “gender” or “gender identity” that is not based on tired old stereotypes: preferences for certain toys, activities, and clothes, and “feminine” versus “masculine” traits. Since we reject gender identity theory, it is clear to us that a male person who self-IDs as a woman remains a male. Whether or not he is treated “as a woman” in a range of social circumstances will depend on that person and on those around him. It cannot and should not be enforced.

We strongly oppose any change in UK law whereby a person can “change sex” by simply making a declaration. Partly because it would put an end to women’s sex-based rights in areas ranging from sport to intimate services, and in places such as hospitals, prisons, rape victim shelters and changing rooms, and partly because it would make it far easier than it is now for bad actors who are not “trans” at all to take advantage of the new situation. This is very obvious from the appalling abuses that have been catalogued in Canada, and against which women are now fiercely fighting back.

In addition – and this is particularly important to us, as an organisation that represents LGB people – self-ID effectively erases us as a group. We are people whose sexual orientation is towards people of the same sex, or in the case of bisexuals towards people of either sex. The idea of a “gender spectrum” renders our sexual orientation meaningless, and that is completely unacceptable.

 

15 thoughts on “Interview. We dig deeper into the controversial LGB Alliance.”

  1. ‘LGB’ Alliance is a hate group that not only call for the complete and final elimination of trans people in the whole world, want LGBT school clubs closed because they claim there is a risk of ‘gay male predators’ and that gay teenagers sexuality ‘is not settled.

    They want the total exclusion of trans women from all women’s spaces and services. Censorship to stop trans people even being mentioned. The end to any legal gender ID change, or any anti discrimination protection for them.

    That no person, organisation or Govt body refer to anyone except as by their ‘biological sex’.

    That any space that cis women use, or any service they they use (inc health, employment, etc) exclude trans women.

    That no trans woman ever be referred to as: a ‘woman’, a ‘mother’ or a ‘mother in law’.

    As I sad, this is a hate group that want the total elimination of trans people.

    They want conversion therapy done on trans kids and teenagers.

    1. Just once I’d like to see a trans rights activist argue their case in good faith without lying. The above comment is filled with dishonest statements. Black people did not resort to lies to make their case. Women did not resort to lies to make their case for suffrage. Abortion rights activists do not resort to lies to make their case for abortion rights. Trans ideology is the only “cause” that regularly resorts to lies to make its case. Could it be because the ideology is based on a bedrock of lies?

    2. Unfortunately for you, we can actually read above what the LGB Alliance has to say on these topics and we can also easily see that you are lying. They aren’t “hateful” and in fact, they raise many good points. Your comment is educational, however, inasmuch as it provides an example of the kind of abuse that LGBA has been enduring and of the character of trans activism, which seeks to shut down discussion and inquiry.

    3. Lisa, you are a deeply lesbophobic person that consistently spreads hate against lesbians day in day out. It is b.c of people like you that we need to go back to biological sex based LGB. ‘Cis’ women do not exist. We are adult human physical biological females, we do not need a gender identity to be women. Sod off with this stupid shit.

  2. The first post by Lisa Mullin is a nonsense and shows just how hyperbolic and downright dishonest gender believers often are.

    It is clear to all there are people who believe in gender ideology, some of whom call themselves trans, disagreeing with or opposing gender ideology is not calling for anyone’s ‘final elimination’. The same as disagreeing with or opposing religious people’s beliefs is not calling for their ‘final elimination’ either.

    No reasonable LGB person thinks gay men as a group are predators. There are gay men involved in LGB Alliance so I hear (it is what the G stand for). Most people are aware it is heterosexual males who commit the majority of sexual crimes, and understand that when het males identify as women they don’t suddenly become less of risk to females.

    Same sex attracted people do often do go through a period of trying to accept or being unsure of their sexuality, particularly in their teens, most LGB people have gone through this so understand it.

    I see nothing wrong with any female space, service or group that excludes males, and refusing to make an exception for males who identify as women. Why should a certain group of males have exceptions made for them?

    The only people trying to censor are gender activists who call for ‘no debate’ and threaten anyone who disagrees with them.

    Every reasonable person agrees that everyone should be free from discrimination in housing, employment, etc. What reasonable people object to, is males having the privilege to pretend they are female written into law and policy, and forcing us all to play along with that lie under threat of legal action, job loss and worse.

    Referring to people’s biological sex reflects material reality, which is very important in law and policy, particularly when it comes to ensuring females and homosexuals have rights in law.

    Females have the right to female only spaces, if a male enters that space it is no longer a female only space. What is wrong with having third spaces for those who don’t want to share with their own biological sex?

    A male can never become a woman in reality as it is a biological impossibility, similarly he can never become a mother, males cannot give birth. Most people understand these realities.

    Again, rejecting gender ideology is not calling for anyone’s ‘elimination’.

    Gender ideology often functions as conversion therapy for gays and lesbians. We only have to look at Iran where homosexuality is illegal but if you trans the gay away you are accepted.

  3. The LGB Alliance seems like an excellent group doing very necessary work. My only concern (and hope) is that they more broadly challenge the false construct of “LGBT people,” an invention of political activists in the 1990s which purported to conjoin LGB people and transgender persons into a single fictitious group. LGB people are defined and demarcated by sexual orientation. “Transgender” is not a sexual orientation, and indeed trans people can be, and are, heterosexual. Lumping the 2 together and proclaiming that they are “one people” sharing a common identity is deeply dishonest and harmful to LGB people. It is particularly LGB boys and girls, who should be affirmed as girls and boys, and not told that, by virtue of being gay or bi, that they are somehow linked with transgenderism.

    “LGBT” not only distorts and misrepresents LGB identity, but it also gave license to LGB organizations to alter their priorities and marginalize LGB concerns relating to law and public policy. “LGBT” is why once-gay orgs like Stonewall UK or the National Lesbian and Gay Task Force (since re-named) in the USA now focus largely on transgender issues which have nothing to do with LGB people.

    I would hope that going forward, the LGB Alliance makes it a priority to undo this mistake of 20 years ago. LGB people cannot thrive fully unless and until “LGBT” is discarded.

  4. As the mother of a teenage lesbian, I am overjoyed at the rising of the LGB Alliance. She will need support and nurturing from other lesbians as she grows up, and of course that means lesbian spaces that will naturally exclude biological men.

    This ‘A group at Lancaster Pride held another demonstration in 2019 but were surrounded and shouted down by trans rights activists. A photo of this was subsequently tweeted by the Head of the Board of Trustees of Stonewall, praising the transactivists. Yes, really.’ sums up the under-current of tension within my daughter’s LGBTQ club perfectly.

    A request for LGBAlliance please (but I am sure you are doing this anyway); Is there some way they could engage with schools to put in place lesbian-only support networks? Can older lesbians, as suggested by Julie Bindell within her fabulous speech at the Womans Place UK conference this year, somehow pull together to build a framework of support?

  5. ‘What are your plans for the future?

    Global revolution. We will challenge the dominance of the international groups ILGA and IGLYO. Gender identity theory has been accepted by multiple organisations worldwide saying they represent LGBT people. We exist to say no – enough – you do not represent the vast majority of lesbians, gays and bisexuals.’

    Thank you so much, LGB Alliance.

  6. “…we live in a society where free speech, within the bounds of the law, is paramount.”

    This is a meaningless statement because an independent publication doesn’t have to publish every opinion. If you give a platform to anti-trans activists, you shouldn’t publicly claim to represent (most) trans people.

    The LGB Alliance opposes the human dignity and civil rights of trans people. They obviously deny this, like every homophobic organisation ever has done. But intentionally misgendering people is a vile form of abuse. Demanding the law require trans people to undergo invasive surgery or medical analysis is reactionary. They oppose trans rights in law (to what extent is unclear), feed into the right wing led panic over queer resources in schools, and their supporters applaud the longstanding, right wing enemies of gay people and women (e.g the British Conservative Party).

    It’s also unclear what the LGB Alliance’s specific demands are. They probably only publicly claim to oppose changes like self-ID. But any comments section reveals a good portion of their supporters are extremely transphobic and would be happy to see the state revert to a position where trans people are not recognised at all. Many of their most prominent public supporters have long been hostile to the mere existence of trans people, especially trans women.

    1. Transgender identity theory is lesbo/homophobic by definition as it erases same biological sex based orientations, like homosexuality. LGBA accepts and supports lesbians and gays. We are fighting now on a daily basis a new form of lesbo/homophobia. That is how bad the TG identity theory is. You can be trans, but you cannot violate the rights of other minorities, which is what the TG movement consistently does and why many resist it.

    2. I have trans friends that agree with me. The TG movement also discriminates against transsexuals. Both homosexuality and transsexuality are biological based, not on self defines gender identities. LGBA supports the rights of all trans people. But it stops where it discriminates against other marginalized groups. Self ID does that discrimination.

  7. //They obviously deny this, like every homophobic organisation ever has done. //
    This is a very bad conspiracy theory. Sounds like you know nothing of LGB alliance. You are now trying to vilify a minority by comparing them to their own oppressor. Do you also vilify other minorities by claiming that they are as same as their oppressors? Good job. Do you ever think before you type?

    //As I sad, this is a hate group that want the total elimination of trans people.
    They want conversion therapy done on trans kids and teenagers.//
    Where exactly did you get this from? I am pretty sure to bet on trans activism sites. LGB alliance has never claimed this nor does it want this. This demonstrates that none of you know what it is and spout your responses based on what you heard from second or third hand sources.
    Did you even read the interview? The alliance wants a clear distinction between gender and sexual minority identity. Have you read any first hand sources? I don’t think so.

  8. Okay wow! As a transgendered woman, I hardly think of myself as a lesbian phobic person or trying to eradicate homosexuality. I also don’t see myself trying to seduce straight men or trying to displace women. In fact, I will always in most cases still resemble a man in a dress. Because, despite my gender identity, I was not born female. Transitioning is not meant to be destructive to other people. It is for the individual to decide for themselves to help them feel better. Now as a child, I knew as early as the age of 3, that I was meant to be a girl. Quite frankly, that is my experience and not up to debate by others or to be disqualified as a theory or opinion. None of you have the right to question my experience. It is mine and mine alone. All I want is the freedom to live my life, have a productive career, and be free from discrimination and violence from others. Personally, based on the responses above, I think the jury is still out as to whether LGB Alliance is a hate group or not. Many of the responses above certainly lend their tone to hate all the way around. It does seem that the LGB tends to promote violence against transgendered people based on the responses of people who support the LGB movement. So at the very least, they have some housekeeping to do within their ranks to promote less venomous perspectives towards transgendered people.

    1. // Many of the responses above certainly lend their tone to hate all the way around //

      And where do you see at least one word of hate there? Why does “we don’t want our rights to be removed” is hate for you? Why having lesbian females or gay males organisations or spaces is hateful? Does being tall is hateful to less tall people? Does clubs “only for bakers” should not exist too? And how those bakers are hating everyone else with that? Is there any sense or logic in your accusations at all?

      1. I think Glenn’s comment is possibly an example of the negative consequences of what the abusive strain of trans activists have wrought: Turning supporters against “trans” people as a whole, when many trans people do not want to hurt anyone else or deny biological reality. Glenn, I really don’t think you are the kind of trans person the LGB Alliance is concerned about, unless you are going around hurting other people, too.

        At the same time, one person’s freedom ends where another’s begins, and it’s important for you to recognize the rape-culture, death-threat, truly abusive nature of what some trans activists are doing to LGB people and women. That is why the pushback is happening. It isn’t about the existence of trans people generally, it’s about stopping widespread, documented abuses coming from a loud subset of trans people and their credulous allies. It is very disappointing to have supported trans people for decades and watch some of them completely destroy the trust we had built together, and watch so many other people be afraid to say no to this. It is a new McCarthyism.

        I would prefer to see the kind, decent trans people of the world be able to separate themselves from abusive activists, but that would require yet another round of alterations to terminology. But if I were you I would distance myself from abusers of all kinds, without compromise, including those who use language to describe themselves that is similar to language you use to describe yourself. Good luck. It’s more fun when we all get along, That means we respect other people’s lives, identities and spaces, instead of trying to make everyone around us conform to invasive, violating demands. Attempts to do this will always be met with resistance.

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